Where are the hardcore capitalists at?

[R13]

This wasn't even really about reps or dems, what's interesting is how the middle-class is disappearing, the poor get poorer and the only ones that have done better are the better-offs. The rich keep continuing to take over everything.

[1inStripes]

C'mon Counts...you and I both know that economic policy doesn't affect the economy "right away" like other policies can do on other parts of the country...it normally takes a 6-8 year cycle for economic fixes to fully show their impacts on an economy as large as the US. That's macroeconomics 101.

That's a damn flimsy argument you're using.

Very true. Our recession actually didn't start in 07 or 08. As R13 mentioned it really started around 01 (99-00 is more realistic as the boost from e-commerce flattened out). It leveled out around 03, and then imploded because no fix was made for the housing market snafus that were put into law around 98.

[Counts]

C'mon Counts...you and I both know that economic policy doesn't affect the economy "right away" like other policies can do on other parts of the country...it normally takes a 6-8 year cycle for economic fixes to fully show their impacts on an economy as large as the US. That's macroeconomics 101.

That's a damn flimsy argument you're using.

LOL where is the fun in that.....after hearing how W was all that is unholy and how everything would be so much better after the election it is fun to give it back alittle

[CoeburnCane]

LOL where is the fun in that.....after hearing how W was all that is unholy and how everything would be so much better after the election it is fun to give it back alittle

If you're doing it tongue in cheek then I hear ya...good joke...if you actually believe that stuff then I was gonna start to worry about ya!

[CoeburnCane]

Very true. Our recession actually didn't start in 07 or 08. As R13 mentioned it really started around 01 (99-00 is more realistic as the boost from e-commerce flattened out). It leveled out around 03, and then imploded because no fix was made for the housing market snafus that were put into law around 98.

Yep. All true...that's why I think the sooner we pull away from supply-side Reaganomics NOW, the sooner our economy (and by proxy, the world's economy) will recover and begin to prosper again. We had a long time where supply-side ideals were running the country's economic plans, and along with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars we've run ourselves into a deep deficit.

I hate to say it, but we let 9-11 do it's intended job. It wasn't just about killing infedels to the people who organized the attack...it was more about crippling our economy and weakening our global spending power...which is what the subsequent wars based off of 9-11 have done. War spending and costs from an economy on the rebound put us in a major hole.

Due to this, real simple math must reign supreme--the only source of income for a government is taxes. As much as we all hate higher taxes, we have to balance the budget and get rid of the deficit. We need to BOTH cut government spending where it's not needed, and raise taxes, two highly unpopular things...but the right things to do. Now--how to approach those two concepts is what gets fought about all the time, but when you look at the facts...that is what we need to do.

Sometimes the toughest thing to do is the right thing. I'd vote for a guy in a heartbeat if he said he'd make sure those things were done verbatim.

[R13]

I hate to say it, but we let 9-11 do it's intended job. It wasn't just about killing infedels to the people who organized the attack...it was more about crippling our economy and weakening our global spending power...which is what the subsequent wars based off of 9-11 have done. War spending and costs from an economy on the rebound put us in a major hole.

Not trying to argue about a minor thing, but I don't really think that was it's intention. I mean of course they intended to inflict as much damage as possible, but I don't think they anticipated us being there for 9 years, IMO I don't even think they thought the towers would collapse let alone it impacting us this much financially along with Iraq. I don't know, I just don't give them that much credit, I've never thought 9/11 was that elaborate.

Due to this, real simple math must reign supreme--the only source of income for a government is taxes. As much as we all hate higher taxes, we have to balance the budget and get rid of the deficit. We need to BOTH cut government spending where it's not needed, and raise taxes, two highly unpopular things...but the right things to do. Now--how to approach those two concepts is what gets fought about all the time, but when you look at the facts...that is what we need to do.

Speaking of taxes, the Bush tax cuts are going to be expiring, but the WH are trying to get the ones in them for the middle-class to be extended while the bulk of the rest for cuts for the rich to expire. They weren't well thought out and cost us incredibly. There's smaller taxes that can be put in place that would bring in revenue, not just income taxes.

[Counts]

Not trying to argue about a minor thing, but I don't really think that was it's intention. I mean of course they intended to inflict as much damage as possible, but I don't think they anticipated us being there for 9 years, IMO I don't even think they thought the towers would collapse let alone it impacting us this much financially along with Iraq. I don't know, I just don't give them that much credit, I've never thought 9/11 was that elaborate.

Agree for the most part but there was alot of planning and cordanation that went into it

Speaking of taxes, the Bush tax cuts are going to be expiring, but the WH are trying to get the ones in them for the middle-class to be extended while the bulk of the rest for cuts for the rich to expire. They weren't well thought out and cost us incredibly. There's smaller taxes that can be put in place that would bring in revenue, not just income taxes.

IMHO taxes will go up and while it will most likly not be the end of the world I do not want to see mine go up the cost of everything has went up the last few years but my work has frozen wages for the last 3 or 4 years so it is the equivalent of a pay cut

[CoeburnCane]

Not trying to argue about a minor thing, but I don't really think that was it's intention. I mean of course they intended to inflict as much damage as possible, but I don't think they anticipated us being there for 9 years, IMO I don't even think they thought the towers would collapse let alone it impacting us this much financially along with Iraq. I don't know, I just don't give them that much credit, I've never thought 9/11 was that elaborate.

Understood...but the thought hit me just the other day--I think the actual minions carrying out the attack thought as you're saying--that it wouldn't work, but they would still get their 72 virgins, so what the hey. In terms of the bigger picture, I'd say the guys in charge (Bin Laden and his ilk) likely saw the possible economic ramifications and how it was a win-win for them--the evil white devil comes to make war w/us after we attack--we recruit more. The evil white devil gets crippled economically in the global economy--worth a few lives of our countrymen (which we're gaining back anyway due to higher recruitment).

Granted--I agree they probably didn't think we'd be dumb enough to stay 9 years (esp. when you take into account they likely didn't think we'd be in Iraq fighting 2 wars for most of it). They underestimated our rage and thirst for revenge, which to some may be a "good thing", but it effs us over economically and causes more and more in-fighting politically.

[R13]

Exactly, what we have done is upped recruitment. We have made Bin Laden bigger than he ever was, along with the Taliban. We have done nothing really but fuel this whole thing more and more, I actually think Bin Laden and Co. thought they would have been caught immediately(to go down with a fight, but end up being a martyr), like we all thought would happen. This IMO was just never winnable from the get go, if it was, it was in the beginning and when IMO when Bin Laden was still alive to catch...I know these guys aren't the sharpest guys out there, but after nine years, they are smart enough to get out of town. They were always spread out, but they are so scattered all over the world that it's just impossible. We should have come home a long time ago.

[1inStripes]

The way things looked, we most definitely missed our best chance at Tora Bora.